The Body Type That Dare Not Speak Its Name

[lillibet]

A couple of weeks ago, muffyjo and I were having pedicures. She's been having plantar fasciitis and was talking about the footrubs that have become part of her morning routine. One of the pedicurists suggested that she should find a foot-fetishist, someone who would really enjoy doing that for her. She recoiled a bit, stammering, and I said that my problem with festishists is that I don't like the feeling of objectification. I said that I've slept with a few men who weren't entirely comfortable with me being fat and many who've not had a problem with it and a rare handful who've made me feel good about my body in the form that it takes, but the one guy I've had sex with who was really into fat chicks, who loved the rolls of flesh around my waist and clearly gloried in my physical form...he kinda freaked me out and made me feel more trapped in my body than any other experience I've had.

"But you're not fat," the woman at my feet said.

People say this to me regularly. Pretty much any time I use the word. I get told that I'm large, not fat. I get told that I carry my weight well, that I'm statuesque, that I'm zaftig, that I'm well-proportioned. That they would never use the word "fat" to describe me. That I'm not fat. Wrong. Look at me. Talk to my doctor. Ask the people who've yelled at me on the street. Try to buy me a piece of clothing at a non-specialty store. Trust me, I'm fat.

I'm okay with that. I spent a while being unhappy about it and dieting and losing weight and regaining weight and making myself more unhappy. Until I got sick of being unhappy and fat and realized I couldn't fix the fat thing, but I could fix the unhappy. Since then my metabolism and I have reached a reasonable truce. I have a very stable weight. I have excellent numbers for cholesterol, sugar, etc. I'm quite strong and very flexible. Right now I'm having back issues that are very clearly associated with my extra vertebra, rather than my size. And the rest of the time, I feel pretty good about my body. I have many excellent features. People tell me I look good. I feel good. No one flinches when they look at me, clothed or otherwise. There are lots of other things I can say about my body, positive and negative, when they're relevant. I don't feel defined in a negative way by my weight or my appearance.

Now, I'm not running around wearing Fat Pride t-shirts, and not just because I don't wear clothing with words on it. I don't think it's a fantastic thing that I'm fat. It's just one of the things I am.

My husband is tall. People comment on his height all the time. When the subject of height comes up and he acknowledges that he's tall, no one rushes to tell him that he's not. No one says that he just has a long reach, or that he's probably just wearing the wrong shoes.

Why can't I talk about my body in a realistic way without being contradicted? Without being reassured that I'm not that terrible thing: fat. Without it being implied that there is something wrong with my body, something so terrible that even with the evidence before us we must never acknowledge it, never mention it.

I know, people say stupid things. They don't know what to say. So many people have deep, negative issues about their weight and size that reassurance is a reflex. Our society sends a strong message that fat is immoral and it's not just us fatties who receive it. When they say I'm not fat, they're really saying that while I may be fat, I'm not ugly and I'm not a bad person. Thanks. I got that. Can we please stop focusing on the word I used to accurately describe myself and listen to what this fat chick has to say?

Comments

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

Damn straight! I also use fat to describe myself, for exactly these reasons. I have been fat and not fat. THey're different, and the two states affect my life in different ways, but "fat" and "thin" are not words that determines my state of worthiness, or happiness (as opposed to, say, "depressed," a state of being that matters a lot more).

[kalliejenn2.livejournal.com]

hooray, this.

[lifecollage.livejournal.com]

Word. People flinch reactively when I describe myself as a short fat chick, denying both. I'm 5'2" and 195 lbs - oh, yes, I am both short and fat and have been since birth. Even at my lightest adult weight, I was still 155, a number "too high" for my height. I come from Irish-German peasant stock and my grandad was built like a tiny linebacker. It's nearly unavoidable.

Right now, I'm in the process of turning a lot of that weight into muscle because I'm not comfortable in my body, but that's about fitness and mental health, not the weight. I'm still probably going to describe myself as short and fat, and still hope that some day someone will create a fashion line for short fat chicks and all of our particular design needs.

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

I describe myself that way-- short, fat, red blond hair... too. The obvious reason is that that's what I look like, and if I'm describing myself, then there's some reason I'm trying to do that and accuracy will help. The other reason is what lillibet is getting at: trying to de-pathologize the word, just by making it one of many descriptors.

I, too, find that people flinch or are otherwise uncomfortable, and I try to be compassionate and sympathetic about that, but use it in ways that will make the word more familiar and push comfort zones, without making people unable to engage in the conversation.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

I've read what you said and given it thought. Honestly? If I didn't already know what you looked like, your self-descriptor of 'fat' would have had me looking for someone else. Understandably we each have our own definitions of words we use, but FWIW, you don't fit my personal definition of 'fat'. That's just a statement of accuracy, not meant to be a protestation or invalidation or trying to keep you from claiming the word in however you see appropriate.

Ergo, if you'd described yourself as 'fat' to me, my inclination would have been to be confused and I possibly might have said, 'but you're not fat'. Just exactly in the way the lillibet described. And possibly you would have attributed a negative connotation to what I'd said: invalidation? discomfort? etc. None of them would have been accurate.

I don't know how many other people who protest are doing so because they are truly confused and are disagreeing rather that attempting to console. I can't speak for anyone else. Sometimes it's clear from the expression on their faces; possibly not always. And I can imagine that if a person is primed to expect a certain reaction, they might be more likely to interpret it with that bias.

Ironic how words can be such slippery elusive things. And how one person's meaning can be taken totally differently depending on the experience of another.

[edited because I apparently can't manage LJ tags lately]

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

I've read what you said and given it thought. Honestly? If I didn't already know what you looked like, your self-descriptor of 'fat' would have had me looking for someone else.

Sure, sure. Here's a piece of context to imagine:

I'm meeting some volunteers for an Open Studios event at the local cafe. We've only communicated through email to date. I say "I'll be there at 2pm. I'm short, fat, bleached blond hair, wearing jeans and a plaid shirt." Now, knowing that cafe, a woman wearing jeans and a plaid shirt isn't going to be enough to go on. :)

So you come in, you don't know me, and you see a woman sitting at a large table with a pad of paper, looking ready for a meeting. She;s short, strong, healthy looking, bleached blond hair, jeans and a plaid shirt. You might say to yourself 'hmm... is that her? She said fat, this woman looks healthy. But, sure, I guess people who like big butts and cannot lie, would be going for that. And, um, I guess someone might call her fat. hmm..." You walk up and ask if I'm the person you're to meet. We make introductions and talk about the Open Studios business and life goes on.

But slowly, slowly by using that terminology, I might help educate people who hold that opinion, that wrong idea, slowly I help educate them that fat does not always equal unhealthy.

Point being that holding up an idea and saying "This may be wrong, but I believe that all members of class=x also are members of class=n," and then returning repeatedly to that idea in discussions, makes no sense. Saying "because lots of people believe that all people=x are also n, so therefor you shouldn't describe yourself as x, is the opposite of forward progress in progressive attitudes toward people of either class=x, class=n, or class=x+n.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Point being that holding up an idea and saying "This may be wrong, but I believe that all members of class=x also are members of class=n," and then returning repeatedly to that idea in discussions, makes no sense.

You're right; it makes no sense. I also didn't say that, as far I know (certainly as far as I meant). I can see why it initially came across that way; my wording wasn't clear and that was my bad. I've tried to clarify. But what's coming across now is that you are continuing to mis-read my comments. It may be that I don't know the correct way to phrase my meaning to get that meaning across.


Saying "because lots of people believe that all people=x are also n, so therefor you shouldn't describe yourself as x, is the opposite of forward progress in progressive attitudes toward people of either class=x, class=n, or class=x+n.

Again, I don't think that I said this; I don't believe that I told you that you should stop doing anything. I did say that I suspect you will have an uphill battle. I also said that I admired your attempt at re-claiming the word as you saw fit and that I would try to incorporate that into my own lexicon. This would seem to be the opposite of what you appear to be accusing me of. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you as you are misunderstanding me.

I am genuinely trying to come to mutual understanding here. But to repeatedly tell me 'you're wrong, you're defending a wrong stance and you make no sense' doesn't seem terribly constructive. I am attempting to not react defensively and will continue to do so. But you certainly aren't winning me over to your way of thinking by repeatedly saying things in a way that would put a person on the defensive.

I don't expect that this is your intention and I do think that you are genuinely trying to educate. That attempt is laudable and I am trying to learn what I think you're trying to teach. But I do want you to know how your words are coming across, just as you clearly want me to know how my words sound.

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

Sorry I missed your comment about understanding my reasons for using the word. I was replying through an email-interface to one comment, without having seen the others. Taken as a whole, the set of your comments better help me understand where you're coming from. Thanks for trying to understand me, too.

Anyway, it's a way, way bigger topic than can be meaningfully handled in LJ!

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

I really appreciate that you've been patiently trying to explain your stance; it's given me stuff to think about. Thank you for doing that. While I would never (ever) want to contribute to a person's negative feeling about themselves, I can see how ignorant usage of emotionally loaded words (or protestations when none are necessary, which just feeds into the negative connotations) could just reinforce the Badness. And it must stop, somehow.

And thanks for supporting my attempts at clarifying; I realize that the stuff I said might have come across as hurtful. The thought of that bothers me greatly. It was not at all intended. I really do want to be part of the solution, or at the very least not contribute to the problem. Thanks for trying to help me see it.

And you're right, this really is a much bigger topic than can be handled in LJ.

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

"I come from Irish-German peasant stock and my grandad was built like a tiny linebacker. It's nearly unavoidable."

I hear ya! I come from Italian and Polish peasant stock. My body was basically built to pull a plow and birth babies. I have big bones. Even if I lose weight, my skin just hangs off those big bones. It isn't cute.

I do not get why health is now equated with a certain weight that doesn't take into consideration your ethnicity or body type. And duh, muscle weighs more than fat.

I'm now in better shape than I've ever been in my adult life and I weigh more than I ever have in my adult life as well. Because I have more muscle. This year was the first time my doctor has ever made a comment about my weight creeping up. Did she do a body fat analysis on me? Did she check my blood pressure? Nope. Just the number on the scale was cause for concern. When I weighed 20 pounds less but was a thin person with barely any muscle tone who flunked a functional movement screening because of this lack of muscle, I was only ever congratulated about my weight by my doctor. Now I can run five miles without getting winded, hold my body up in low pushup at yoga class and lift heavy things without my back hurting. But none of this matters because I weigh more. WTF?

Time for a new doctor?

[kellyjmf.livejournal.com]

I would switch to a nurse practitioner who will look at the person instead of the numbers on the form.

Re: Time for a new doctor?

[bedfull-o-books.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. Or at least talk to her about her biases.

At my next physical, I am going to refuse to get on the scale....

Re: Time for a new doctor?

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

eh, once i explained to her my situation she was pretty understanding. i think she may have been more concerned that my weight went up so quickly than, oh noes, you gained weight. i'll give her one more try.

[moria923.livejournal.com]

People have yelled at you on the street? What absolute total imbicilic jerks!

I've had the same experience: my describing myself as fat and people trying to deflect it in some way, as if you're not supposed to admit it. I find your post useful. Sometimes I've been tempted to hide behind their euphemisms, but I'll be less likely to now.

At the same time, for the last couple of decades many people have avoided the word "blind" like the plague. The most common euphemism is "visually impaired", though I've gotten others, including "hard of seeing". I consider this mildly insulting, and would consider it more insulting if I didn't realize these folks had been inculcated with so-called "sensitivity". At the same time, the actual word "blind" continues to be used as a metaphor, usually for undesirable traits like lack of perceptiveness or lack of thought or feeling.

[bedfull-o-books.livejournal.com]

Hard of seeing? Seriously?

I am shaking my head. A lot.

[muffyjo]

Incredibly well put. Thank you. This.

[muffyjo]

Would you mind if I quoted you elsewhere? I would like to share, especially the last four paragraphs, in a weight-appropriate community.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Of course. You're welcome to use anything that's useful :)

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

I have a very stable weight. I have excellent numbers for cholesterol, sugar, etc. I'm quite strong and very flexible.

See, this is why I might be one of those people who wouldn't see you as 'fat'. Not because I'm uncomfortable with the concept, but because rightly or wrongly, I equate 'fat' with 'unhealthy'. Maybe the better word is 'obese'. I've seen some people whose body fat just hangs off of them, who can't get around very quickly and who clearly have health issues because of it. These are people who I would agree are 'fat'.

There is also the whole cultural bugaboo about what is considered beautiful. I get all sorts of body types who come to me for dresses and every single bride but one so far has wanted to lose weight for her wedding. It's like an unbreakable Rule, proven by the exception. And even that one was happy that her weight was naturally going down. Why was it going down? Because she was imroving her diet. Again, here, 'fat' = 'unhealthy'.

I'll try not to contradict you or anyone else if they call themselves 'fat' in my presence, but usually people say the word 'fat' in a tone/context of self-deprecation. And thus I can see why people might rush to contradict. Not to mention the very real problem of pathologically altered body-image one sees in anorexia and bulemia. If a teenaged girl says that she's fat, we've learned to be very prone to look at her with concern.

So, I'm not trying to invalidate what you are saying or de-value your own experience. But like it or not, you and many women in our Tribe are in the minority for being willing/able to say describe themselves as 'fat' without implied negative connotations. That says a lot for us, that we can glory in our body types and feel loved and gorgeous regardless of what society at large says.

And FWIW, I was teased all my childhood for being too skinny/flat chested. Also I've had idiots yell insults at me from moving cars for being a redhead. I'm not trying to make it a contest or lessen the trauma of your experiences. I just would like to say that I can empathize a bit.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

I very deliberately did not make any attempt to lose weight for my wedding. But I do know many, many brides who have, sometimes to disastrous effect.

Partly what bugs me is the context. If I say "Yuck! I'm feeling fat and ugly today," which I do sometimes, then I probably wouldn't mind being told "Gee, I don't think of you as fat" or "You don't look fat to me." Because in that case I'm identifying it as problematic, as something that's bothering me, which it does sometimes. I think even in the case I cite above, I wouldn't have minded something along the lines of "I'm surprised to hear you call yourself fat." In the case of the teenage girl, I think I'd go more with "Why do you think you're feeling fat?" or something like "Fat or not, you look beautiful to me." Something that acknowledges the person's own understanding, while supporting a positive outlook.

It's the flat contradiction that seems to me both ridiculous ("Your hair's not red!") and disrespectful ("I reject your self-description."). I'm thinking now about how I would feel to hear myself described as fat in a non-pejorative way--I don't think I've ever had that experience, which is interesting in itself--and I'm not sure. Something more to think about.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

"Fat or not, you look beautiful to me."

I like this. Mind if I use it?

It reminds me that when someone has called themselves 'fat' I've said in the past, 'I think you look healthy' or I've said 'I think you look beautiful' and I've said it with an admiring smile. And I mean it when I say it. But I'm not sure if that might be taken as a contradiction/invalidation of someone's self-description, though. Maybe. So I
m going to try to adapt your way as quoted above.

Thanks for that; it might just make the difference to someone someday.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Anything useful is yours to use :)

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

because rightly or wrongly, I equate 'fat' with 'unhealthy'.

Can I just jump in here and answer this? The answer is "wrongly." The equating of "fat" with "unhealthy" is, in fact, wrong. True fact. It's not backed by science or by actual meanings of the words.

Rather than using that point to defend a position of thinking of healthy people who are also fat, as not-fat, it would better serve everyone to accept that this idea you're holding onto is, in fact, wrong. I know you're coming from a good place when you say this, and your comment and attitude are generally supportive and accepting &c! I know that. It's just repeating the wrong idea and owning it isn't going to help change other people's wrong ideas or make it go away.

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And thank you.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Please see further commenting. My guess is that you jumped to an erroneous conclusion likely brought about by my less than accurate wording. I have tried to be more clear.

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the clarification, but it just confirms that I didn't misunderstand you, and I still agree with miss_chance.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

As you choose.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

I appreciate that you are trying to re-educate and I will give some thought to what you said. But I think that you might have misunderstood. My take on the meaning of 'fat' comes from 12+ years in the medical field. Am I saying that 'fat' is equated with 'unhealthy' in the medical field? Yes, I very much am. And there is good valid reason/basis for that. And as I said earlier, perhaps the better or more accurate word would be 'obese'. Is obesity unhealthy? You betcha. By definition of the word. I will not get into the stupidity of measuring BMI, etc. or what constitutes 'obese'. That can be a different discussion.

However, I did not, in fact, mean to say or even imply that a person who is not thin is by definition 'unhealthy'. I don't believe that. See above where I commented that I often reply to someone's description of 'fat' with the phrase 'I think you look healthy'. Because I do believe that not-thin can be very healthy, depending on the individual person.


Not because I'm uncomfortable with the concept, but because rightly or wrongly, I equate 'fat' with 'unhealthy'.

Perhaps I was unclear. What I said/meant was that I equate the use of the word 'fat' with the word'unhealthy', especially when used as a negative self-description, as put forth from my reading of the original post. An anorexic teen-ager who uses the word 'fat' as a description for herself is indeed unhealthy, even if she is actually skeletal.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

I will add to this, rather than edit. I can very much see why you'd want to de-pathologize the word 'fat' and just make it a descriptor. I will try to incorporate that into my own lexicon.

I support and admire that you are trying to reclaim the word and wish you luck. But I suspect that you'll have an uphill battle there, precisely *because* the word has been used so often as a negative or self-deprecating term. There is quite a difference between the terms 'not-thin' and 'fat'. As I agreed with lillibet before, when someone describes themselves as 'fat', they are usually meaning it in a negative sense, present company excepted.

For my own purposes I choose the word 'round' if describing someone who is not thin, because that's how I see them. And again, as I'd commented before, I usually say that with admiration. I myself would like very much to be rounder. And in fact I tried to be, to the point of gaining 35 extra pounds in the hopes of, among other things, making my bones stronger/possibly being healthier. It turned out not to be healthier for me (stressing 'for me'). This does not mean that I equate being non-thin as being unhealthy for everyone and I believe that I have made that clear.

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

You know, it's funny. I totally hear where you are coming from with loving your body for how it is and you have the right to do that and call yourself whatever you want to call yourself.

On the other hand I hate using the word fat to describe somebody (ironically,I'll use it on myself although I've gotten better about that lately) because I see it as a word people use to tell women that they are ugly, inferior and worthless. Fat is what people call you to imply that you take up too much space, you don't belong, that you're lazy and stupid and you don't have the right to exist.

I don't look at any of the beautiful women I know and see ugly, inferior, worthless people. I see different shades of beauty, different coloring and body-types that suit different people. So I bristle when I hear the word fat. Maybe that says more about me than about the people who use the word, but I can't see it as anything other than a negative. Not because I see being fat as some sort of a negative thing, but because I see the ways it is used as a slur against people.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

I hear ya. I really do. But I don't know what other word to use that doesn't sound like a euphemism required because, again, we just can't use that word. I am overweight and obese and chunky and chubby and round and well-padded and zaftig and husky and Rubenesque and large. For me, all of those words mean the same thing and have the added connotation that fat is such a bad thing we can't say it in polite company.

I'd rather just be fat.

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

Makes sense. There's no point in using a bunch of PC expressions that make being fat sound like some sort of handicap.

Maybe I'm just sensitive because I was bullied for being fat as a kid. Time to move on much?

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that you were bullied. Oddly enough, my bullies never targeted my weight, so I was spared that particular injury.

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

thanks, no matter what they tease you about, it still hurts. :)

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

I actually prefer "fat" to "overweight." Fat means I have fat, more fat on my frame than a thin person. And indeed I do. "Overweight" means my weight is over what it should be (according to somebody else). The negative judgment is built right there into the compound word... I most dislike it as a supposedly polite euphemism for the supposedly pejorative "fat." Although I wouldn't try to tell anybody else what to call themselves.

I'll accept "obese" partly because it's literally true at the moment according to my current BMI -- but I am still a small person who can shop for regular sizes at normal stores, and I don't look like what people imagine when they imagine "obese." So of all the words on that list, "obese" (along with "fat") are the ones most likely to generate the spontaneous "but YOU'RE not __!" But, I am, and dragging the meaning of the words back towards the judgmental "grossly enormous people who take up too much space in the world a.k.a. not YOU" meaning is what merits an objection, not my usage.

[minkrose]

I think this comes closest to my own response: I tend to think of "fat" as a pejorative, much like faggot. I don't have any gay friends who call themselves that, and I'd be surprised if they did - we just don't use that word (though I know some people do, in a positive manner).

I agree that a lot of other words are euphemisms, but since I think "fat" is often used with intent to offend, it's not one that people are comfortable saying or hearing unless they know how it will be interpreted. It might be a negative trigger for some people who were teased. Around a stranger, I would be less inclined to call someone fat, or agree with them if they called themselves that. Around a friend, I would probably have a different reaction, though I can't say it's ever come up. I'll have to pay more attention.

That said, I don't think my reaction would be "But you aren't --!" I think I'd be more likely to say "I wouldn't call you that." Which is accurate!


I'm glad you posted, lillibet, as I hadn't thought about using the word "fat" from this perspective. Thank you.

[trowa-barton.livejournal.com]

What about Rubenesque?

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Not a word I'm likely to use to describe myself, but it's sweet that you think so :)

[kellyjmf.livejournal.com]

I like to think of myself as evolved to survive an ice age. Extra insulation? Check. Child-bearing hips? Check-arooney. Big, efficient baby feeders? Check and check. Shorter legs to power though snow drifts? Oh you betcha.

[bedfull-o-books.livejournal.com]

I like to think of myself as built for comfort, not for speed... ;-)

[greenlily.livejournal.com]

I've been known to describe my body type as 'the right shape for comfortable hugs'. :)

[bedfull-o-books.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this. I am so with you.

Someone, I forget who, pointed me to The Fat Nutritionist:

http://www.fatnutritionist.com/

She hasn't updated in awhile, but she posts interesting stuff.

[dpolicar]

(nods)

I find that I only use "fat" to describe myself when I'm being deprecating about my body shape, and that I am reluctant to describe others as "fat," and that I definitely resonate with the urge to treat such descriptions as disapproval-worthy violations of social norms, while at the same time being irritated as all fuck when people (including me) actually treat them that way.

I have many of the same reactions around "bald".

[entirelysonja.livejournal.com]

This was quite an interesting discussion, and I'm sorry I missed it.

I'm with you on reclaiming the word "fat" as a descriptor. I am fat. Heck, I'm obese, to go further down the path weegoddess was traveling. I don't have a problem with being fat. I don't have any interest in changing that fact, either. And I sure don't mind if other people think I'm fat. In fact, what makes me the most uncomfortable is when people ask me if I've lost weight, as though that would obviously be a thing I would want.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Yeah--I've definitely learned to ask people who've had noticeable weight loss something more like "How are things with you?" or even "You look like you've lost weight--is that something you've been working on?"